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Okay. We all know the score with locksmiths associations, as has been discussed in various topics around the forum.

I have been asked numerous times about starting some form of association/organization/membership for locksmiths, and am now seriously thinking about it. The idea would be to have an organization that both installs customer confidence, and also has benefits for it's members.

There would be a need to apply membership/joining fees for promotion, and to offer ongoing benefits to members. Member benefits could include training days/meetings, for a nominal fee to cover costs, where there could be different classes held for advancing skills and knowledge. Perhaps two a year, one in the south and one in the north?

The general logistics of the organization would be promoted by a dedicated web site:

• Customer National Locksmith search
• Organization Code of Ethics
• Members Area
• Tool Sales

This is all just general ideas but what I need is your thoughts on a) Would you join such an association/organization? b) What would you expect from membership? c) What would make us stand out from the crowed? etc, etc........

I have brought someone on board to get this going, but I will let them tell you who it is when they want to.

I would subscribe as I wont be renewing my Locksmith subscription. 

It would be good to have regional training days or just different venues for training days as and when as opposed to everything down south.  A quartely mag or sooner with product info and tips etc.  General techniques of using differnt tools or pointers on lock id, upvc etc, the list is endless.  Some sort of work referral stratagy and as you say customer locksmith search.  You are well on the right lines with your ideas.

I would also subscribe, I like the idea of different venues for meetings/training updates and magazine or info leaflets. I would like a vehicle sticker and the use of a membership logo for clothing, stationary, advertising , an approved locksmith listing. I think  minimum  requirements may be a standard crb check and proof of training, trading along with agreement to a code of ethics and possibly liability cover. these would give the public  some assurance in the values of an association. Advertising  the association in The Locksmith mag could help it become more nationally recognised by the trade.

I agree in principal. My only concern is the history of other associations which I believe all started with the same ideals. A few years down the line a power struggle erupts within, gossip floods the market about how useless the whole thing is and then it packs up!

Not saying this would happen with this one but it is something to guard against.

I agree with a CRB check, liability insurance, not sure about training proof as what would the standard be set at. If data protection laws allow perhaps contacting applicants customers would be a good idea.

Down here we have the Buy with Confidence scheme which is run by Trading Standards. I love it as it gives customers confidence. It doesnt say you are a brilliant locksmith, plumber etc but it does say you are reliable, trustworthy, credit worthy and previous customers(20 minimum) have given the Trading Standards testimonials for you. Paperwork has to be in order and you must leave a feedback form at every visit. All that for about £120 a year!

Not saying we should do all of that but I think that shows what customers want from this type of association.

Excellent feedback so far everyone with some good ideas. I agree with Kentlocksmith about previous associations and the problems with the powers that be, but those involved with admin and day to day running etc will be kept at a minimum.

We probably wouldn't go for a CRB check as you can't do a full one  on yourself and they really don't prove anything. An enhanced PNC check which you can obtain yourself would be more appropriate, plus proof of liability etc.

With any such organization like this we would have to comply with data protection laws which is easy enough. Membership criteria would be strict, but not to the point where we alienate locksmiths from joining. The idea as well would be that new members would have to attend at least one of the training days within 6 months of joining, and pass a competency test. lots and lots to think about, along with lots and lots of outlay£££!

Keep the feedback and ideas coming everyone.

I agree with what Kent says....

I'd like to see a monthly subscription as opposed to money up front (although this may be needed to get something off the ground) that way 'members could opt in or out.

is a CRB check required? as this is only for working with children or vulnerable adults.

I'd prefer to see a 'subject access' check which shows no criminal record so that links in with the 'honsesty' side.

chaz at August 13, 2010 at 4:53 AM

I agree with what Kent says....

I'd like to see a monthly subscription as opposed to money up front (although this may be needed to get something off the ground) that way 'members could opt in or out.

is a CRB check required? as this is only for working with children or vulnerable adults.

I'd prefer to see a 'subject access' check which shows no criminal record so that links in with the 'honsesty' side.

The problem with monthly subs would be that a member could join, attend a training day within that month (depending when they join), and then leave. Remembering as well that they would have received membership card, logo's etc all at a cost? It would have to be a yearly fee I think.

I agree with the CRB checks but you will have to tell me more about the 'Subject Access' checks Chaz. Perhaps PM me? No criminal record though...Mmmm. There would have to be some consideration for this as many people have 'silly' things they have done in the past (I'm guilty), so a level of sensible judgment would have to be applied.

sorry should have clarified it will show anything held on the PNC..date etc so a 'judgement call' can be made on that....yep I'm in the young and foolish catagory too!

Jay... I'll send you a PM it'll be in a day or so as I'll scan the forms in etc

The below is from the Met Police website.

If you do not or have never lived in London then contact your local force..

Due to a change in the rehab of offenders act any previous cautions etc do not have to be disclosed and are classed as 'spent'

The Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA 1998) gives you the right to access personal information (information about yourself) held by organisations.

Subject Access Form

The MPS Subject Access form is available for download in the following formats:

Adobe PDF - this format requires access to Adobe Acrobat Reader. This is often already installed on computers, but if you do not have it you can download it free from the Adobe website.

Microsoft Word for Windows (version Word 6.0/95)

File size is shown below to give an indication of expected download times. Times will vary according to the size of the particular file and the speed of your connection to the Internet.

The Metropolitan Police Subject Access Form (Form 3019)

Use this form to access information held about you on the PNC or other MPS systems.

Adobe PDF [49KB]

MS Word [179KB]

If you do not live or have never lived in the London Metropolitan area, please apply to the Police Service that covers the relevant region or area.

Links to the websites of other UK police services

As printed/written documentation to prove identity is required when making a subject access request, we cannot accept completed forms via email.

We do not currently have the facility for completion of forms online.

The postal address for return of completed forms is:

MPS Public Access Office, PO Box 57192, London, SW6 1SF

To request access to general information (non-personal information) held by the MPS, please make a Freedom Of Information Act request.

Thanks Chaz.

Count me in, although i agree with Jays point on the "no criminal record " issue. I am sure a few of us have the odd silly mistake on our records. But like they say "no one is innocent, but some are more guilty than others"

You can apply for a basic CRB check for yourself online http://www.crbexpress.co.uk/basic-disclosure-crb-checks.aspx and it costs £43.00 inclusive of vat.  My present Association requires a new CRB check every 12 months, ie on renewal of membership.  It doesn't really show anything other than a criminal record in the previous 12 months.  I guess it is a starting point / measure to try and ensure members are now law abiding citizens despite what may have been the case in the past.

Locksmith Association/s

Oh well here goes, at the risk of alianating some of our 'non' locksmith members the first casualties would surely be them.

1 How can you have an asociation for locksmiths if some are not trading as locksmiths?

2 If everyone is paying the same fees who decides who 'runs' the association, as the best locksmiths may not be the best 'managers'

3 Would it have annual 'elections'

4 How would we decide the criteria for membership (ie minimum qualifications)

5 The idea of bi annual training day's is a very good idea where new locks and systems could be discussed, but would these be on an adhoc basis (like your open day's J), or would they be formal classes with members knowing what is to be discussed and who is 'instructing' 

My thoughts on some of the comments so far:-

Dean, I believe it would be reckless at least, to produce a magazine and show everyone who could read the methods we use (legally) in our trade, plus we pay to aquire or knowledge.

Martin Trade Association stickers are only as good as the association, and they alone do not prove you are actually a member (plumbers/electricians etc) I believe EVERYONE should have a minimum £5,000,000 liability cover when working for the public (is that not right) I have my own cover.

Chaz To allow members to opt 'in and out' on a whim would be a very bad idea in my opinion,as the people you want in an association are people who intend to support it.

Finally The CRB check is to show that you can be trusted (allegedly) in the presence of kids and vunerables. You could be called to work in any scenario ie a school or care homes or disabled peoples homes.I have.

Last thing from me at the moment, I think the only way to have a universally recognised and creditable association is if the government put something in place and it was rolled out nationally, with regulated teaching and testing. I don't see this hapening though.

Guy's & Gals I honestly am not trying to put a dampner on these thoughts but I see more pitfalls than positives at the moment,(however I am open to being proved wrong)

My Best Regards To All

@Dave: Some good points raised which I have tried to answer briefly below.

1. This would only be open to Trading locksmiths, not linked to this site in any way.
2. The fees would be for membership and not to decide who runs the association, that would be the founders.
3. No elections
4. There would be set criteria for membership, yet to be decided.
5. Training days would be informal, but with various classes that members can choose to attend. Some classes would be run by members with particular skills, and some by trade professionals invited by the association?
6. Any association mag, info leaflets etc would only be for members.
7. Member logo's, stickers, badges etc are part of the parcel, though as you say don't prove membership in all cases.
8. 5 mil liability I'm not sure of? I have only ever had 2 mil, though 1 mil is the norm in our trade.
9. Membership would be annual. There will be a form of check, be it a CRB, PNC, etc though these checks and their outcome will be discretionary.
10. This will be a totally new association with a new approach aimed toward customers and members. It will be national, though there is no sign of there ever being regulation for training and testing.

All this is very, very early days with lots to sort out and decide. Like anything though it has to start somewhere and will only hopefully grow into an established and trustworthy organization.

I currently have 1 mil liability, I think if you regularly work on public buildings and commercial contracts this wouldn't be enough but it's better than having none.

HI Chaz would it be legal or not to do a PNC Check then advertise it on headed paper stickers and sign written on your vehicle saying PNC passed .I have been lucky that every Organizations i have worked or voluntered for i have passed every CRB check and my first one was by Scotland Yard i have been i security now for 8 years and im so honest its a good feeling to know you are squeaky clean Thanks All

We do a lot of work on the nurses accommodation blocks at a few hospitals and the fire brigades (key worker) houses and it is in our contract to have 10 million public, 10 million employers and also 5 million products liability.  

I'd like the new Organisation to be less about Politics, and more about improving skills. (But those that know, or have met me, know how I feel about Locksmithing Politics already ;)).

Everyone, as you vcan see, will need different levels of Liability cover for the work they do, contract requirements etc. Most start at 1mil, but it can always be increased if need be at any time to cover a contract work as Keith mentions in his post perhaps.

Jay Im Just back from hols its a very interesting&difficult subject,I agree with Simon and on quick reflection my thoughts are that perhaps other associations/memberships put too much emphasis on customer confidence and promoting a brand this leaves any new/budding association to join a long list of others touting for the publics custom.

I would like to try it slightly differently wherepon its about the members members members similar to the masonic lodges  discounts may be gained from the suppliers,work passed among members and any new products/tools would be promoted and displayed for free by manufactures at meetings and members would all have the latest information and NDE techniques available,with this I think the customers will come.

All the best Phil.